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Board index FiveWin for Harbour/xHarbour Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 09:26 AM
I don't think it's a better or worse decision. The question was "Is SQL overrated?"

It depends a lot on what you want to do with the data — whether you're just collecting it or actually working with it.

I often wonder why companies still need so many Excel spreadsheets despite using SQL?

What’s needed is an update to the DBF format and a group of people to take care of it. DBF is the POS (point of strength) of Harbour/FiveWin.

There are other specialists and programming languages for SQL. By focusing on SQL support, we (Clipper/Harbour and its successors) are undermining our own foundation. In total, only a few percent of Clipper/Harbour and its successors -programmers actually use SQL — but they demand and receive the full attention of the community.

From a marketing perspective, wouldn’t an xBrowse with variable row height be more valuable than yet another SQL dialect for just a few programmers?

It weakens the developer’s self-image: “I used to do everything locally, portably, directly – now I have to deal with engines, dumps, user rights, and query errors?” This scares off smaller companies, solo developers, and niche software – the core of the HARBOUR/FIVEWIN/Xbase audience.

SQL might be the right choice for individuals — but not for Harbour/FiveWin.

If we want to attract new users, we need to look at the market of Excel programmers, GIS user, DMS systems.


Don’t replace DBF – improve it.
A modern DBF 2.0 with: Unicode support, longer field names,parallel index support,transaction logging,easy JSON export ...would be a future-proof format that fits.



I once asked this question to every AI personally available to me. Here's a compressed summary:
🧠 How long will SQL retain its current relevance?
📉 SQL today is “legacy by default.”
It dominates not because of innovation, but because it's already there — in toolchains, frameworks, and job descriptions.

The next generation doesn’t use SQL directly, but through ORMs, no-code platforms, or abstracting backend services.

In AI-based architectures (LLMs, retrieval engines, embedding systems), SQL is no longer central:

Vector databases (e.g., Weaviate, Pinecone, Qdrant) are non-relational

JSON/DocStore approaches like MongoDB, Typesense, DuckDB, Zep, etc., are structure-flexible

AI works with text, not with tables

🤖 AI radically changes data access
Before AI → After AI
Tables, columns → Embeddings, documents, tokens
Queries, joins → Prompts, relevance, context windows
Formal models → Semantic search
SQL optimization → Prompt optimization, chunk strategy
Data engineers → Prompt engineers / Data curators

➡️ AI needs structured raw data in text form — JSON, Markdown, or XML — not SQL join logic.
➡️ The next generation asks:

“How do I embed this invoice?”
not: “How do I LEFT JOIN it?”

📊 Forecast (realistic):

Timeframe SQL relevance in practice
2025 Stable but stagnating
2030 Largely replaced by AI/NoCode/LLM abstractions
2035+ SQL as a niche solution (audit, reporting, legacy)
Continuity Only in large enterprises, government, legacy projects

🧩 Conclusion for developers and decision-makers:
SQL is like COBOL: it will never completely disappear — but it won’t be central anymore.
The future belongs to formats that are machine-readable, semantically analyzable, and versionable.

DBF + JSON + filesystem logs are suddenly not outdated,
but ideal sources for AI, LLM processing, and audits.
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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 01:17 PM
To All ... I have no problem with dbf or sql databases .. my only comment is we as developers need to be aware of data breaches and hackers just looking to steal personal information. I have been using database encryption for years ... yes, it takes a bit more overhead to save and encrypt and to de-encrypt to manipulate but I believe as developers we have a fiduciary obligation to protect our customers data. For example if someone steals your Customer table .. at least if it is encrypted .. It will definitly slow down a hacker to try to de-encrypt your customers data .. and my just decide to forget about de-encrypting and tossing it away ..

Just a few things to think about ... Rick Lipkin

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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 01:54 PM
Enrico Maria Giordano wrote:
---> The fact is that SQL is very much limited and slow if compared with DBF
Thats a lie.
As you wish, but a fact is a fact, sorry.
Transactions
Relations
Server to server/slave sync
Stored procedures
NO FILE SIZE LIMIT
Scalability
All modern programming languajes have SQL drivers integrated (DBF?)

Those are facts too
;-) Ji,ji,ji... buena la cosa... "all you need is code"

http://www.xdata.cl - Desarrollo Inteligente
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Asus TUF F15, 32GB Ram, 2 * 1 TB NVME M.2, GTX 1650
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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 02:31 PM

All modern programming languages have SQL drivers integrated (DBF?)

Exactly — that’s what I was saying above.

Harbour/FiveWin is putting effort into supporting SQL — but due to limited resources, the core base of programmers is being neglected.

And just like a skipper on a sailboat calls out “Ready about?”, Harbour/FiveWin is being quietly abandoned.

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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 03:35 PM

Please show a browse with million of records with DBF and try to do the same with SQL.

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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 06:08 PM
Hi,

You know perfectly well that SQL isn't meant to work the same way XBrowse uses DBFs. Perhaps this request isn't fair. A system that works with SQL creates a data request and returns it so the client can process it. Indeed, these are two different ways of working. Anyway, perhaps, as someone said at the beginning, they're just trying to provoke a bit... :D

C.
Salutacions, saludos, regards

"...programar es fácil, hacer programas es difícil..."

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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 07:12 PM

OT: How SQL Undermined mod_harbour – A Missed Opportunity for the Community

I'm making a claim here: mod_harbour was deprived of success because of SQL.

If someone uses SQL on the web, they go straight to PHP.

mod_harbour is such a great product, but somehow the SQL lobby managed to convince us that if it's web, it has to be SQL — only then is it considered professional.

But that’s a completely different thing.

And so, most Harbour/FiveWin programmers never even started with mod_harbour — or they gave up on it.

What makes it even more frustrating:

mod_harbour wasn’t just a tool — it was a gift to the community from Antonio.

A modern entry point into the world of web development, built specifically for Harbour developers, based on our own strengths.

It required no SQL, no external frameworks, no migration to a new language.

It was meant to lower the barrier — and we ignore it.

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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 07:38 PM

Dear Otto,

There is missing docs about mod_harbour. I think it's the reason because mod_harbour isn't a sucess - lack of good documentation.

I know there are many topics in this forum about mod_harbour, but there is only fragmented code and nothing that someone can use to start.

Sds,
Vilian F. Arraes
vilian@vfatec.com.br
Belém-Pa-Brazil
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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 07:38 PM
Carles wrote: Hi,

You know perfectly well that SQL isn't meant to work the same way XBrowse uses DBFs. Perhaps this request isn't fair. A system that works with SQL creates a data request and returns it so the client can process it. Indeed, these are two different ways of working. Anyway, perhaps, as someone said at the beginning, they're just trying to provoke a bit... :D

C.
Yes, but that way you can't develop the same fast and strong interactive application you developed with DBF. So what?
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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 09:18 PM
Vilian,
There is missing documentation about mod_harbour. I think that's the reason why mod_harbour isn't a success – the lack of good documentation.
I know there are many topics in this forum about mod_harbour, but it's just fragmented code and nothing that someone could actually use to get started.
And do you know why? Because the FiveWin forum is overloaded with off-topic SQL questions – these questions actually belong in a Harbour or SQL forum.
More or less, a handful of people keep flooding the forum with SQL topics. That leaves no room for FiveWin anymore.

But I'm not an admin here.
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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 10:40 PM

Otto,

Sorry, but i can't agree with that. There are more posts about SQL because more people are using it. Simple like that.

DBF is a dead format.

Sds,
Vilian F. Arraes
vilian@vfatec.com.br
Belém-Pa-Brazil
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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Thu May 29, 2025 05:46 AM
Hi,
Otto wrote: I'm making a claim here: mod_harbour was deprived of success because of SQL.
You are completely mistaken, and that is a significant misconception. Anyone can use mod_harbour with either DBF or SQL without any issue. The problem lies elsewhere, not in this aspect. I personally utilize DBFs depending on the specific application type, and SQL for others, interchangeably.

Both systems possess their respective advantages. The ability to use SQL merely enriches Harbour's capabilities. While I can understand a preference against SQL, the only outcome of this stance is a further division within the group. If you wish to use DBFs, then by all means do so. If you prefer SQL, that is also an option. What is the difficulty or problem ?

Otto wrote: But I'm not an admin here.
Luckily... :D



C.
Salutacions, saludos, regards

"...programar es fácil, hacer programas es difícil..."

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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Thu May 29, 2025 07:18 AM
Carles,

Thanks for your replies – I appreciate hearing other perspectives.

Just to clarify: I’m not saying that SQL shouldn’t exist, or that people shouldn’t use it. What I am pointing out is the side effect it had on this specific community, especially regarding mod_harbour.

Yes, mod_harbour can use both DBF and SQL. That’s exactly the point — it was designed to be flexible, and yet somehow it’s been overshadowed.

Why?

Because the moment SQL enters the room, everything becomes about SQL.
The forum, the examples, the documentation – suddenly they’re no longer about mod_harbour, but about connection strings, queries, and SQL dialects.

That’s fine for some users — but for many others, it makes mod_harbour feel inaccessible. Especially newcomers, who might have been looking for a simple, local-first, DBF-based web entry point.

And it’s not about “division”. It’s about focus.
We had a tool — a gift — made specifically for our ecosystem.
It should have been our starting point into the web, not a detour into SQL debates.

Let’s be honest: SQL is well-documented everywhere.
But where’s the clean, beginner-friendly guide for mod_harbour with DBF?
Where’s the official “getting started” package?

That’s the lost opportunity I’m talking about.

Then came the split — Antonio’s official FiveTech version vs. v2 — and they weren’t even code-compatible.
The little seed was just starting to grow, and someone hit it with a hammer.

Instead of making things easier, the focus suddenly shifted to MVC and structured architecture, which beginners can't relate to.
What was supposed to feel familiar and simple now felt like a foreign framework.

And now – five years later – with the rise of AI, I think that train has left the station.
If we want to keep “CLIPPER” alive in the modern world, the only path is to return to the DBF format and push it forward.

Because here’s the truth: for the classic DBF use case, there simply is no real alternative.
We just don’t see it — yet.

Please take a look again at the SQL forecast I shared earlier:
📊 Forecast for SQL:

Year SQL Relevance in Practice
2025 Stable but stagnating
2030 Largely replaced by AI/NoCode/LLM abstractions
2035+ SQL as a niche (auditing, legacy systems)
Survives in Large enterprises, government, legacy apps

SQL is becoming "legacy by default".
The next generation uses embeddings, JSON, and semantic search — not LEFT JOINs.
If we want to be part of that future, we need structured data, transparency, and control —
and DBF + JSON + filesystem logs are actually a perfect match for AI-driven architectures.

Best regards,
Otto
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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Thu May 29, 2025 12:13 PM
vilian wrote: Dear Otto,

There is missing docs about mod_harbour. I think it's the reason because mod_harbour isn't a sucess - lack of good documentation.
I know there are many topics in this forum about mod_harbour, but there is only fragmented code and nothing that someone can use to start.
https://forum.modharbour.app/
Cristobal Navarro

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Re: Why SQL Is Overrated – and Why Files, DBF, and Microservices Are the Future (Especially for Web and AI)
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 01:36 AM

Hello, my opinion

I like dbf simplicity, but it has some limits about access, security, navigation, etc, then for this razon I like ADS, it combine the best of both worlds

Saludos